The Satan and the Devil.

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The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Unit7 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:12 am

I was reading something Dawn posted in the Sex thread about Oral Traditions. This reminded me of a guy I know on a different forum who talked about how the original Oral Traditions were different then what they are today.

But I need to ask something.

When did Satan become the Devil? If I understand such things correctly, Judaism are the roots of Christianity. Now in Judaism Satan could only Test man when given permission from God. He was the District Attorney of Heaven whose job was to prove that the person was guilty. God and The Satan were never really opposing forces in the sense that they have become in today's view.

Now maybe I am dense... but I don't understand why Christianity took Satan and made him the Devil. I know in a passage that Jesus talks about watching Satan fall from Heaven like Lightning. or something like that(I forget which one)

But this is radically different then that found in Judaism, which seems to be the very roots of which Christianity was created. Jesus was not only born Jewish, he practiced it. He even taught at synagogues.(unless I am missinformed in this. Which I might be.)

I believe int he Book of Job Satan needed permission from God to test Job. In the Hebrew belief, The Satan was merely acting as God's DA trying to prove God was wrong. He doesn't act on his own will, but with the Permission of God. Now unless Job was first man created by God(which I thought Adam and Eve were the first humans) Then that would also mean if the Serpant was Satan, that he had to have had God's Permission to tempt them.

But if Satan is the Serpant and he was acting in defiance of God after his Fall from Heaven, then why is he later working directly with God.

Ok just answer one thing.

If Satan is Lucifer who fell from Heaven, and is also the Devil. Then exactly when does the Book of Job take place in regards to the biting of the fruit. But if I understood correctly, the Book of Job wasn't the only instance where Satan is mentioned. In fact if I think that in all instances where Satan is actually present(not sure if it was just the Hebrew Bible or not) that he also needed God's Permission before acting.(but then I might have bad info on this)

Its...

Ok now my head hurts. Damn and here I thought trying to figure out the Zelda Timeline was hard to figure out.

Basicly what I want to know is this.

How did Satan go from Prosecutor to Evil Entity.

Also doesn't the very concept of another entity creating 'evil' sorta go against Isaiah 45:5-7? It was quoted on a website written by a Rabbi explaining about Satan and his role in things. I looked it up on biblegateway.

God causes both the Good and the Evil in this world(well he says Darkness and Calamity. I guess that might be up for interpetation). He states in clearly enough. Doesn't God already do what we view the work of the Devil? lol

OK but lets get back to the main question.

If Satan and the Devil are one in the same. That Lucifer is Satan/Devil. Then when did Satan go from Prosecutor to Rebel? Why in Christianity was this changed?

Of course as Dawn pointed out, the Bible was written quite awhile AFTER Jesus's death. In fact most of it was Oral Tradition. Thanks to Human Error it might be difficult to actually trust everything quite literal. I mean have you ever played telephone? The game where a bunch of you sit in a giant circle and whisper something in the next person's ear. Someone, will always mess it up. So...

Oh fun fact: Some scholars believe Revelations is actually about the Fall of the Roman Empire and something to do with one of its more terrible leaders and that 666 is actually refering to Nero.

*shrugs*

Alright my head hurts and I just no longer care. Funny how I can start off by asking a simple question and turn it into one giant post.

Also.

In Before TL;DR.

Ha!

But then, does it really count as being 'in before' if its in the Opening Post? I mean thats sorta cheating, no?

...

Yup I am done.



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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Rex on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:01 am

It's rather simple. Even now the abrahaimic god looks like a horrible monster that makes Hitler look like a cute kitten. If he didn't have an opposite like Satan someone on who all the bad stuff could be blamed on he wouldn't be much different then all the other gods at the time. This is not about misunderstanding it's about politics. Christianity is not really that much of a spontaneous religion. It was carefully crafted by very smart man and it's quite likely that it doesn't have much to do with the original message of Jesus. That's if Jesus even existed
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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by brown eyes sp on Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:52 am

I've always wondered that too. I have to think that the picture of Satan as some evil guy with horns and a tail has come from society and human ideas because as far as I remember he is never mentioned as the devil in the Bible at all. Just a tempter, doing his job.

Our ideas of heaven and hell have evolved a lot outside of Biblical teachings too. We think of heaven as "up" and hell as "down," so it makes sense that somewhere along in human history we needed the opposite of God to be the boss of hell. No one really liked Satan anyway because of the whole tempting thing, so he became the devil and filled that hole.
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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Hannah_Banana222 on Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:21 am

I'm feeling nostalgic and found this really old post, so I thought I'd try to clear some stuff up.

Lucifer was an angel. Like the best, hottest one there was. His downfall—pride. He got so full of himself that he thought he was cooler than God and got 1/3 of the angels to agree with him. Then God was like, "Oh no you dih'int," and made hell to cast Lucifer (now Satan... why the name change? no sé) and his posse (former angels, now demons) into.

People have such skewed ideas of Satan. Ignorant people are always like, "oh, Satan's tempting me." Yes, he is a tempter, but he's not a god. He's not omnipresent. Just like a person, he can only be in one place at a time. To think Satan himself is tempting you is pretty arrogant. He only shows up for the really important jobs. He sends demons for the little stuff.

And speaking of completely changing ideas of supernatural beings, angels probably look nothing like the sexy white people with wings and halos we see in movies. Well, the angels who told the disciples that Jesus had risen were glowing men, so we could be close... But cherubim and seraphim look nothing like that. We have cute little fat naked babies. I'm not sure which is which, but the Bible describes one kind as looking like wheels and another covered in wings.

As for Job, most historians believe it's the oldest book of the Bible. That's not to say it's the oldest story, just the oldest One written. The oldest story (creation/Adam and Eve) is in Genesis, but it was written by Moses, who was wayyyyy later. Anyway... A lot of people (myself included) believe the story of Job is just an allegory, like an extended parable to teach people how powerful God is. Nowhere in the book is anyone or anything we can place in any certain time in history. If the story actually did happen, no one has a clue when or where.
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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Rex on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:59 pm

That does pose the interesting question of if God actually did kick good Lucy back to hell why on Earth does he allow him to mess with humans? I mean it's supposed to be a prison not a summer camp right? So either God endorses Lucy and demons messing ,possesing and so on humans which makes him kind of an ass or he coulnd't build a foolproof prison and his power is likely not that much different then the old pagan gods
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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Hannah_Banana222 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:03 am

If those are the only two options, then I guess it's the former. Though I wouldn't necessarily say God is an ass.

If Satan and his demon friends didn't fuck with us all the time, life would be pretty easy, and we wouldn't really need God. God allows us to be attacked and tempted to show His power. To show us that we're basically worthless sheep who can't do anything without His help. Most people are probably like, "Well that's not nice. God, you're a jerk." Maybe so. But He's GOD. Everything is relative to Him. The Bible tells us He's a jealous God. When we waste all our efforts pleasing ourselves instead of focusing on Him, He doesn't like that. Now if a human was like that, everyone would be like, "Dude, why are you so egotistical? It's not all about you." But this is the Creator of the universe we're talking about. The guy who designed people capable of imperfection just so we could pale in comparison to Him and realize how awesome He is and how much we desperately need Him. We can't be so selfish as to think that He loves us for our own greatness. He loves us because He made us. And He made us because He can. We're really insignificant.

Christians see temptation as a way to be strengthened. At least I do. God will never allow you to be tempted with something you can't possibly resist, and as you resist the smaller things, you get stronger. Closer to perfection. It's called sanctification. Becoming set apart and holy. Now, this will never happen, of course. We'll never be completely holy. The more and more like God we become, we realize how far we have to go. I like to think of it as the graph of a quadratic equation. God is like a vertical line. We're a parabola. We get more and more "vertical-looking," but we can't ever get there. Looking at a graph, we might seem to look like God because of how exponentially we've grown, but there's always that tiny little bit that's still at an angle.

And because God has allowed me to be tempted, I'm now less likely to be like, "Hey thanks, man," if some creepy guy on the street offers me an AIDS-infested syringe of heroin. So even though it sucks trying to resist temptation, it's what's best for me in the long run, and I'm grateful for the opportunity for self-improvement. I've always been a firm believer in the whole "the end justifies the means" thing.
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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Rex on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:05 am

If those are the only two options, then I guess it's the former. Though I wouldn't necessarily say God is an ass.
Sadly christians have painted themselves into a corner with that ridiculous all powerful stuff. Without it their religion and god would be immensely more complex and interesting but sadly their ego drove them to the"he is the most super awesome all powerful" and thus a lot of situations when it comes to christianity are extremely limited

And based on human culture all human cultures god's action throughou the Bible are definetely those of an ass and he is not really portrayed any differently then any other pagan god


If Satan and his demon friends didn't fuck with us all the time, life would be pretty easy, and we wouldn't really need God.
Would you mind elaborating on this? Because this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Are you seeing that all diificulties in human(and animal since animals go through the same heav stuff like we do) are caused exclusively by Satan?


God allows us to be attacked and tempted to show His power. To show us that we're basically worthless sheep who can't do anything without His help. Most people are probably like, "Well that's not nice. God, you're a jerk." Maybe so. But He's GOD. Everything is relative to Him. The Bible tells us He's a jealous God. When we waste all our efforts pleasing ourselves instead of focusing on Him, He doesn't like that. Now if a human was like that, everyone would be like, "Dude, why are you so egotistical? It's not all about you." But this is the Creator of the universe we're talking about.
So? I never understood why people are so impressed with power. I mean have you seen our world? In less then a hundred years we went from still using horses and primitve firearms to being able to wipe out whole continents from thousands of kilometers away. We have created the most comprehensive database of knowlede(and porn) in existance. We have travelled beyond our planet. We have instant communication. We have satelites capable of transmmiting so sophisticated live images to the point that we can read newpapers headlines from space. We can genetically manipulate life to an insane degree.

We have developed a technique capable of reading our thoguhts at a primitive level. we recreated teh creation of the universe on a small sacle. And all this with corporations slowing down patterns and sabotaging new inventions to maximize profits. With the way technology is progressing within 500 years we would have eclipsed anythign God has managed to do. And yet I don't see this as a reason for blind respect. Respect much less devotion has to be earned no matter who or what you are

At least that's how I see it




And because God has allowed me to be tempted, I'm now less likely to be like, "Hey thanks, man," if some creepy guy on the street offers me an AIDS-infested syringe of heroin. So even though it sucks trying to resist temptation, it's what's best for me in the long run, and I'm grateful for the opportunity for self-improvement. I've always been a firm believer in the whole "the end justifies the means" thing.

I think simple education ,good parenting and common sense will have the same effect. No need for demons really
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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Hannah_Banana222 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:39 pm

Why does power simplify things? I've researched a lot of other religions, and they often have this philosophy. I met a Hindu priest, who said something like, "If your god is only good, that means he can't be bad. You're limiting him." Maybe so. Maybe he is limited in characteristics. Why can't he then be unlimited in power?

I think you're equating God too much to people. HE IS GOD. HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS. Yes, I can see why you'd call him an ass and such, with all the judgment and destruction and whatnot. But he's God. He owes you nothing. He has no reason or obligation to give you life and sustenance. But he does anyway. He doesn't need reason either to punish you. The fact that you've sinned is reason enough to judge you more than we would think you deserve. You deserve nothing. Humans aren't worthy of any sort of pleasure.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. No, I don't believe all "bad" things in life come from Satan. My boss would say so though (I work at a Christian school). During our prayer meetings, any time someone mentions illness or injury or any sort of malady, she says, "That's an attack from the enemy. We need to be in agreement that we will not accept that." But I think she's batshit crazy. I don't agree with that. Temptation comes from Satan. I'm not saying life would be perfect without him. Not easy in a sense that we would be on vacation all the time with no worries ever. I'm saying that it would be easy to refrain from sin. Then pride would run rampant, and everyone would think we are God's equals. Even if mankind was sinless and holy, we'd still be subservient to God because we're not transcendent. But we wouldn't believe that. We'd see how awesome we are, let it go to our heads, and eventually, there'd be another Satan. So if Satan's influence was stopped, that wouldn't be the end of it. We would all become like him, and the problem would be even worse.

I've heard a joke that I think kinda fits here...
Some guy was showing God that he was just as good as he was, so to prove it, God told the man to create another man. "Easy," the man said, reaching for a handful of dirt. "No no," God said, "Get your own dirt."

Yeah, humans are ridiculously powerful. But EVERYTHING we have is from God. Even the man-made stuff requires knowledge and resources that he alone can provide. No matter how awesome we get, we can never surpass God. He is infinitely greater than anything we can possibly rise to be.

Why do you call reverence for God "blind respect"? You don't think he's earned it (not that I think he has to, but if you do, I think he has more than earned it)?

My examples are kinda far-fetched, but I do that just to make a point. I would hope that most people can withstand the temptation to avoid in curable diseases and deadly drugs. All I'm trying to say is that as someone is successful in resisting temptation, they're able to handle more in the future.
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Re: The Satan and the Devil.

Post by Rex on Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:22 am

Why does power simplify things?
Lack of power justifies a lot. And there is the old logic problem. You know the burrito question

I'm not saying life would be perfect without him. Not easy in a sense that we would be on vacation all the time with no worries ever. I'm saying that it would be easy to refrain from sin
I am curious what do you understand under sin. Since the idea of sin has changed a lot through the ages


I think you're equating God too much to people. HE IS GOD. HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS. Yes, I can see why you'd call him an ass and such, with all the judgment and destruction and whatnot. But he's God. He owes you nothing.

True but we owe him nothign either


Then pride would run rampant, and everyone would think we are God's equals.

Well you are right about pride. I already think I am superior Wink


You deserve nothing. Humans aren't worthy of any sort of pleasure.
It depends on the point of view I guess. I personally think most gods aren't worthy of anything



Even if mankind was sinless and holy, we'd still be subservient to God because we're not transcendent.
What if we become transcendent? With the pace of tehcnology it will be only 200-300 hundred years before we are at the point where we will be able to transfer our consicouness to artifically constructed bodies. We would be immortal to any outside factors. We would be able to ignore biological needs if we want to.
And I am also curious. If this suddenly become avaible much earlier would you take this kind of immortality?

[quote]Yeah, humans are ridiculously powerful. But EVERYTHING we have is from God. Even the man-made stuff requires knowledge and resources that he alone can provide. No matter how awesome we get, we can never surpass God. He is infinitely greater than anything we can possibly rise to be./quote]
Even if we assume that this creature planted life on Earth or even caused the reaction that started the universe it doesn't mean much. After all if I give a blank canvas to Monet who will be greater? I because I was the one to give it to him or him because he has created a master work. In fact everything living on the planet is an argument this. The whole point of evolution is that we are cosntantly improving on what we are given. We started as small single cell organisms and we evolved to the point of insane diveristy
Unles you mean that every single thought we have in our heads is a direct order from god and we are nothing more then puppets with no free will or minds


Why do you call reverence for God "blind respect"?
How is it not?

You don't think he's earned it (not that I think he has to, but if you do, I think he has more than earned it)?
How so? Sure God in the form of Jesus has done some repectable things but based on what I have seen in the Bible God's actions in sumation do not really deserve much respect

All I'm trying to say is that as someone is successful in resisting temptation, they're able to handle more in the future.
Are they? I am not too sure about this. From what I have seen usually sheltered people break much harder then the one who have given in temptation a few times




P.S By the way in the future espeecially if you are arguing about God's cruelty and imperfection of our world you might try to use the Universe 25 experiment as an argument. It will throw people for a loop Smile
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